Is the office of the bishop a real govermental office in the scripture ?

[Apostle Prude]

Is it verifiable in the New Testament that the office of the bishop is equivalent to the office of the apostle ? Is there any basis in the scripture for what we see today in this movement. Are robes and and other religious clothing scriptural? Have we allowed the things that were rejected in the reformation to creep back into the church?

[Randy McKee]

Greetings in the name of the Most High, Jesus Christ!

The word translated into Bishop in several places also is translated in the KJV into the position of Deacon and is only separated by the terms of the commission. Scripture speaks to the term Bishop as being appropriate to the position of an overseer of Churches. The Apostle is one who has been commissioned and is successful as a founder of Churches. Thus an Apostle and a Bishop could be one in the same, but they are not necessarilly so.

The issue here is the same one concerning the rest of the ministries; did God call them to this position or is this label a presumption of their flesh.

One clarification regarding the "Five-Fold Ministry" which is a term in constant play today, but has little historical basis. The last two ministries "Pastor and Teacher" in the Greek are not two separate ministries, but rather one who has the ministry of "Pastor and Teacher". Thus it would be more correct to refer to the Four-Fold Ministry.

Although the position of Bishop is scriptural, due to its usage by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, many have a very poor image of the term in their hearts. I personnally would suggest to those using the term, that they prayerfully consider whether it is a term that God is using concerning their ministry, or whether they have reached that term on their own.

Concerning the wearing of robes and vestments, I must first focus on the fact that Paul clearly states that it disrespects our God if a man prays with his head covered. Now some say they wear hats as an extention of the belief of Judaism for men to wear hats (skullcaps) as a sign of respect for God. However, this idea breaks down when one finds that the Jewish practice of wearing a hat first appeared in about 150 AD, well after the Resurrection of Christ and has no basis in Scripture.

God will do many things through the man or woman that will not touch His Glory.

The wearing of bright and flashy robes appears to me to be nothing more then an attempt to bring fleshy focus to the one wearing them.

We have many documents from the New Testament Churches and sadly few people read them today. The ministry of the prophet, was one that when a prophet was to come to a Church, the Church Fathers would meet the prophet outside and in fear say "what have we done that you are here?"

A prophet was to stay only one day, two was allowable if the Church had questions. He could only take food, drink and a bed while he was there. Anything more or to stay longer, he was to be dismissed as a heretic.

The greatest prophet ever according to scripture was John the Baptist, who never had a recorded miracle and after having gave a successful "altar call" and baptism; called the respondents "snakes and vipers".

Can you see John standing in the robes that some wear today?

The problem is that many seek to replace the true authority of our Lord with external garments.

Let it be said of us that it is obvious that we are nothing in ourselves, but that it is also very obvious that we have been with Him.

Let everything of the flesh be consummed and let only what is of Him remain.

Seek Him while He maybe found.

randy

[JIM Otts]

Randy McKee said:

Greetings in the name of the Most High, Jesus Christ!

The word translated into Bishop in several places also is translated in the KJV into the position of Deacon and is only separated by the terms of the commission. Scripture speaks to the term Bishop as being appropriate to the position of an overseer of Churches. The Apostle is one who has been commissioned and is successful as a founder of Churches. Thus an Apostle and a Bishop could be one in the same, but they are not necessarilly so.

The issue here is the same one concerning the rest of the ministries; did God call them to this position or is this label a presumption of their flesh.

One clarification regarding the "Five-Fold Ministry" which is a term in constant play today, but has little historical basis. The last two ministries "Pastor and Teacher" in the Greek are not two separate ministries, but rather one who has the ministry of "Pastor and Teacher". Thus it would be more correct to refer to the Four-Fold Ministry.

Although the position of Bishop is scriptural, due to its usage by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, many have a very poor image of the term in their hearts. I personnally would suggest to those using the term, that they prayerfully consider whether it is a term that God is using concerning their ministry, or whether they have reached that term on their own.

Concerning the wearing of robes and vestments, I must first focus on the fact that Paul clearly states that it disrespects our God if a man prays with his head covered. Now some say they wear hats as an extention of the belief of Judaism for men to wear hats (skullcaps) as a sign of respect for God. However, this idea breaks down when one finds that the Jewish practice of wearing a hat first appeared in about 150 AD, well after the Resurrection of Christ and has no basis in Scripture.

God will do many things through the man or woman that will not touch His Glory.

The wearing of bright and flashy robes appears to me to be nothing more then an attempt to bring fleshy focus to the one wearing them.

We have many documents from the New Testament Churches and sadly few people read them today. The ministry of the prophet, was one that when a prophet was to come to a Church, the Church Fathers would meet the prophet outside and in fear say "what have we done that you are here?"

A prophet was to stay only one day, two was allowable if the Church had questions. He could only take food, drink and a bed while he was there. Anything more or to stay longer, he was to be dismissed as a heretic.

The greatest prophet ever according to scripture was John the Baptist, who never had a recorded miracle and after having gave a successful "altar call" and baptism; called the respondents "snakes and vipers".

Can you see John standing in the robes that some wear today?

The problem is that many seek to replace the true authority of our Lord with external garments.

Let it be said of us that it is obvious that we are nothing in ourselves, but that it is also very obvious that we have been with Him.

Let everything of the flesh be consummed and let only what is of Him remain.

Seek Him while He maybe found.

randy

I Agree with your reply Randy, I would even go as far as a three fold ministry, if you want I can give you my thoughts on that. "Father Son and Holy Spirit"
A true prophet however was stoned for being wrong in the old testiment now we have many self proclaimed prophets in the church today as there really is no punishment nor true guidlines, I know alot that are seers although they would not call themselfs prophets, the sad fact is I feel that prophets came to give correction and direction to the church with fear and trembling of the Lord, it was not a fluffy gentle word as the bible says in the last days there will be eating and drinking and being merry but the bible says woe unto them that give suck in those days, where has the fear of our LORD gone. The bible also says humble yourselfs in the site of the Lord, and of course James says what, not to have favor with this one or that one and put them in the best chairs in the church. Who is the Greatest let me think... I think Jesus said the Least. So we put on these great looking robes and give ourselfs fancy titles and really how does that benifet those that are dieing from starvation in our back yards or how does that help a drug addicted get off drugs. the church is all dressed up although the world thanks its a joke. sad but I think I will have to agree, time to get the overalls on and start plowing some good seed.

[Major Prophetess Faison Sneed]

In the bible inthe old testament the ceremonial dress meant to seperate or "set apart" to "clothe{with}" or put on priestly garments, "to anoint" with oil, and to "fill the hands". Ex 28:40-41 God told Moses who was the old testament High priest or todays Apostle after the giftss were given by Christ,that Aaron;'s sons or ministers that they should make coats, girdles, and bonnets, for beauty and glory. Moses was told to put them on them and anoint them that they may minister unto God in the office in which they were called. See, it was a sign in the physical for a spiritual move letting them know that they were clothed to minister to GOD and when the angels saw them properly dressed they respected and obeyed. Friends, when God say put on ministering garments HE means it. Some of the men of God wore different vesture according to the ministry wherin they were called. However, If you are not clothed in your heart with the spiritual garments all the physical cloth won't help. To answer the question the office of a Bishop is still an office that man appoints. The office of an Apostle is still appointed by GOD. A man can desire the office,however no matter how much he or she as mankind desires to become any of the gifts left by Christ Jesus there must be a calling upon ones life. Remember who gives gifts and who gives offices. Gifts were given by God himself and man was allowed to appoint officials to offices, such as the bishop, seer, elder, exhorter,missionary, deacons, ect. However all of the gifts Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher were given to mankind by Christ Jesus but established by Jehovah God. Those that worship God must worship HIM in Spirit and Truth. There are truly five giftings established and all not two work together and knitted and fitted to build the body. Again, Apostles are not appointed by man they are anointed, and appointed by GOD.

[John Roberts]

I have been thinking about the discussion. Absolutely, because the office has been spoken of in Scripture, however, I do not believe that it is one whereby we esteem more highly than we should. Therefore, some of those that claim this position is sometimes seeking just that...an office. I would rather just be what it is God said for us to be. If God called you into an office, then you operate in that office. I believe that some are self-called, and yet they make sure that they are noticed or esteemed as such. Not to disrespect, but it is kind of like a person that screams loud enough to say that they have power, when in turn they do not. A police officer or deputy sheriff does not have tell you he has the power to shoot you, he warns you if you push it, and then pulls the trigger to show you. My grandfather use to say if you have to scream loud to prove you have power, probably you do not have it! A spiritual father does not stand or sit over you, they get up under you! However, to say that the bishop is the same as the apostle is not a sound statement. If it were meant to establish them as the same office, then we would not have the two diverse words. Bishop = A primary preposition properly meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], that is, over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.: & a watch (sentry or scout). The apostle means a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ. If it were meant to be one and the same, we would not have the diversity. Not to say one has rulership over another, they are diverse just like the gifts of and the fruit of the Holy Spirit, and the gifts to the church.

[Dr. Bernie L. Wade]

It is evident that the 'office' of Bishop has to do with goverance and not the dispensation of gifts or gifting. The Bishop is not a 5 fold ministry title.

It is historically evident that Apostle James was considered by the NT church to be the Bishop of Jerusalem and thus probably the first person to hold that title in the NT church (sorry my Catholic friends, but Peter was not even a Bishop let alone the Pope).

The problem we have with the Bishopric today is that they have joined the Pharisees in being enamored with their long robes and forgotten the people. Apostle James, as a Bishop gives us a stunning example of a Bishop's demeanor and conduct. I can't wait to meet him!

[Apostle Abel Aureli]

What I see in the Scripture, Paul tells Timothy that if one desires the office of a ...Bishop, he desires a good thing. Now, they need to have some good qualities before they will be ...appointed! We read the same Scripture in Titus 1:5, and here Paul uses the term or title of Elders! In every other occasion, like in Acts 14:23 and 20:17, he uses the term Elders, which were all appointed either by Paul himself, or by Timothy or Titus. Now, while these (Elders) where not called by Jesus Himself, as for the Five-fold ministries, still they were Overseers or Elders in a church, and they had to "shepherd" a church, like Paul says in Acts 20:28, they were in no case to be Overseers over a number of churches and their Elders like Paul, Timothy and Titus were. The idea is that if someone is called to one or more of the Five fold ministries, he depends and is responsible (with all due respect to other brothers and sisters), only to Christ, because He called them directly. If instead I appoint an Elder in my church, he is to be submitted to me because, yes I appointed him to shepherd the flock, but as an Apostle or as another one of the Five fold Ministers, I will still be responsible before God or Christ for all the mess he should eventually do. Every elder appointed by Paul, Timothy and Titus had to be submitted to them, until Jesus Himself would eventually call them to one of the Five fold ministries. So, to answer your question, the office of a "Bishop" as the Catholic Church understands it, to be an overseer over a number of churches, doesn't exist and it is one of the few "unhappy" translations in the Bible! ...God bless you, and I hope that all the Bishops now don't want me out! :-) I love you all.